OT: How are there still people out there who don't think Lebron

[Umazing561]

No way. Durant had to join a championship team to get a title (assuming they win it this season). LeBron came to a crappy Cavs team and got them a title and left the Heat, who then became crappy. It's not even close. I would put Westbrook and maybe even Harden ahead of Durant.

I love your take on "crappy"

Jordan had to play in an era where teams were physical and it wasn't this up and down scoring. He also played in an era where there were true centers like Ewing, etc.

I love LeBron and what he has accomplished (I am a Knicks fan btw), but he is not Jordan. Jordan is #1 overall. I'd put Kareem, Magic, LeBron, Bird, Wilt and Oscar Roberson in the discussion for the 2nd tier.

I am telling you, I am no NBA guru, but it astonishes me how uneducated or how little people understand the game today. It's like all they hear is that Bron is the greatest, Bron is the greatest, and it's like - how about a little perspective.

1) NBA actually played defense back in Jordan's day and as KLCane said, had these big dominating centers (not these tall, lanky, shifty centers like today). A physical game. Now, Bron Bron being 6'8'' 250lbs, can more than handle physcalitiy, but my problem with him is that he doesn't embrace a physical game (sure he plays physical himself, but the minute someone takes him on - what does he do? CRIES LIKE A LITTLE Bitch).

2) Jordan never loses an Olympics gold - Jordan never lost a title game (so there's that).

3) Jordan never folded in a game - Lebron just disappears. The funny thing is the Bron lovers just say its because he's unselfish and tries to feed the ball - give me a break. No one misses a clutch free throw better than Bron Bron.

4) You talk about him having bad teams at the Cavs? 2007 he made the finals with a starting five of 1st round picks, actually none of them being under a top 10 overall pick players that have solid bench players around the league. Then he got destroyed by the Spurs, b/c they still played real basketball. But homeboy is going to say he can just waltz into Orlando and win a title by himself. Unreal #fakenews

5) Then he had to leave to actually win, and fundamentally changed basketball with the creation of super teams - not to mention still choking while he was here (what a damn loser).

6) Goes back, has become pretty much the GM of the team, picks his player in the draft, brings Love, and what happens...loses once again.

7) Finally wins, when the RECORD SETTING Warriors mysteriously go cold somehow. Which will happen again, b/c this league is about making sure Bron Bron gets what he wants.

8) He cries to the media when he gets "bullied" on the court.

The proof is in the pudding you guys just let his flashiness, his damn good skills, his being fun to watch get in the way of the truth - he's definitely a top 10, maybe even top 5 player of all time, but he is NO WHERE NO WHERE near the best ever. The gap b/t #1 to #2-#10 is YYYUUUGGGE. Period.

YES I HATE LEBRON, I AM HAPPY TO BE A BRON BRON HATER - AND THAT'S TO PUT IT NICELY. I WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN MIAMI THAT WAS UPSET WHEN HE CAME - despite enjoying rings come in. I don't like it was with him. I root for him to lose every time he steps on the court, and enjoy watching him fails as much as I enjoy watching the Gators fails, warms my heart.

 

[NCTopgoon]

greatest ever that would have to go to bill russell..11 championships in 13 years,no one even comes close..

Wilt Chamberlain was the greatest. Claimed he bedded over 20,000 women.

 

[Canes1575]

Fuvck Lebron..!!!

 

[Joetoth]

Putting aside the Cleveland/Miami/Cleveland fiasco, I don't hate LeBron. Sure he is a little soft compared to some of the greats, but there is no doubt he is a physically gifted athlete and has worked hard to vastly improve his game over the years. He also seems to represent the NBA and himself well off the court.
My comment earlier refers more to the "if he went to Orlando they would win a championship". No one player can bring a ship, not one. You can't just have 11 other players either, you need the right players, the right parts.

But if I was forced to say who I think is the greatest team player and individual player in history is it would be Jordan hands down.
(In today's NBA, I sure like watching Westbrook play).

 

[pittman3j]

the NBA is unwatchable as well. The super team crap is ruining the league (even though the Heat started it)

Super teams existed long before Golden State. For example, Lakers, Celtics,and Heat. Don't blame a guy for prolonging his career and legitimately having a chance to win a championship.

 

[KLCane]

LeBron is no Jordan, but he is definitely top 5.

Look at the stats:

Cavs with LeBron in 2009-10 were 61-21, 1st Place in the Eastern Conference and lost in the Eastern Conference Semfinals
Cavs the year after Lebron left in 2010-11 were 19-63 and 15th in the Eastern Conference
Cavs the year before Lebron came back in 2013-14 were 33-49 and 10th in the Eastern Conference.
Cavs the year after Lebron came back in 2014-15 were 53-29 and 2nd in the Eastern Conference and lost in the NBA finals to the Warriors.
Cavs two years after Lebron came back in 2015-16 were 57-25, 1st in the Eastern Conference and won the whole thing.

Heat the year before Lebron got there in 2009-10 were 47-35, 5th in the Eastern Conference and were bounced in the first round.
Heat the year Lebron got there in 2010-11 were 58-24, 2nd in the Eastern Conference and lost in the NBA finals.
Heat won the next 2 titles with Lebron.
Heat the year before Lebron left in 2013-14 were 54-28, 2nd in the Eastern Conference and lost in the NBA finals.
Heat the year after Lebron left in 2014-15 were 37-45, 10th in the Eastern conference.

These are shocking stats. Shocking. Tells the story pretty well of the impact Lebron James has had in the NBA.

 

[allCanesBlogger]

I don't think anyone believes he isn't the best in the game today. It's where he ranks historically that is up for debate.

... as well as his general like-ability. Cleveland re-embraced him, but let's not forget how they treated his departure—his whole idiotic "The Decision" me-me-me moment, the whole, "not two... not three ... not four" egotistical crap he pulled, the intro at AAA with him, Wade and Bosh parading around like they're a rock band (amidst the smoke and laser lights.)

All the "James versus Jordan" comparisons—it really has less to do with their game and more to do with their aura, attitude, vibe, process, demeanor, et al. Michael Jordan (like Tiger Woods in his prime) was the embodiment of clutch, big time, untouchable, next-level and what not—while little about his off-court life was know.

James is a victim of being born in the Millennial era, where social media and 24/7 news cycles play a huge role in a player's legacy. In James' defense, he's done enough on the court to warrant all the praise heaped on him—but some of the stuff he's done off the course and way he's handled aspects of his career (leaving Cleveland for Miami, leaving Miami for Cleveland)—those are the reasons some folks remain so anti, despite the strength of his game.

 

[e_cushing]

... as well as his general like-ability. Cleveland re-embraced him, but let's not forget how they treated his departure—his whole idiotic "The Decision" me-me-me moment, the whole, "not two... not three ... not four" egotistical crap he pulled, the intro at AAA with him, Wade and Bosh parading around like they're a rock band (amidst the smoke and laser lights.)

All the "James versus Jordan" comparisons—it really has less to do with their game and more to do with their aura, attitude, vibe, process, demeanor, et al. Michael Jordan (like Tiger Woods in his prime) was the embodiment of clutch, big time, untouchable, next-level and what not—while little about his off-court life was know.

James is a victim of being born in the Millennial era, where social media and 24/7 news cycles play a huge role in a player's legacy. In James' defense, he's done enough on the court to warrant all the praise heaped on him—but some of the stuff he's done off the course and way he's handled aspects of his career (leaving Cleveland for Miami, leaving Miami for Cleveland)—those are the reasons some folks remain so anti, despite the strength of his game.

Very well put. Lebron may be the best talent to ever lace them up, but Jordan is the best player in league history. Michael would rise to the situation, Lebron seems to shrink from it. Hard to forget that finals against the Mavericks. If not for perhaps the most clutch three pointer ever by Ray Allen and a questionable suspension for Draymond Green last year, what would Lebrons legacy look like? Can guard all 5 positions, shoot the three, dribble drive, post up, elite passer.....he can do it all, but with 15 seconds left on the game clock down by 1? He is not the guy I want taking the shot.

 

[azcanes]

I don't think anyone believes he isn't the best in the game today. It's where he ranks historically that is up for debate.

Bingo, he is no Jordan

 

[KLCane]

... as well as his general like-ability. Cleveland re-embraced him, but let's not forget how they treated his departure—his whole idiotic "The Decision" me-me-me moment, the whole, "not two... not three ... not four" egotistical crap he pulled, the intro at AAA with him, Wade and Bosh parading around like they're a rock band (amidst the smoke and laser lights.)

All the "James versus Jordan" comparisons—it really has less to do with their game and more to do with their aura, attitude, vibe, process, demeanor, et al. Michael Jordan (like Tiger Woods in his prime) was the embodiment of clutch, big time, untouchable, next-level and what not—while little about his off-court life was know.

James is a victim of being born in the Millennial era, where social media and 24/7 news cycles play a huge role in a player's legacy. In James' defense, he's done enough on the court to warrant all the praise heaped on him—but some of the stuff he's done off the course and way he's handled aspects of his career (leaving Cleveland for Miami, leaving Miami for Cleveland)—those are the reasons some folks remain so anti, despite the strength of his game.

I am a Knicks fan, so I have a bit of an unusual perspective. On one hand, it was horrible having him in Miami. On the other, I love that he left and Heat fans are so upset about it.

Looking back, I really have no problem with him leaving Cleveland and then coming back. It is actually a cool story. To this day, I can't understand why Miami fans are so angry with him. He won you 2 titles. It is like UF fans being angry with Urban Meyer leaving. They are hired guns. They did what they were hired to do.

The fact that we have NEVER heard any off the court issues (guns, violence, etc.) with Lebron James furthers his legacy. The "not one, not two..." crap was just fun stuff for the fans. Anyone who is upset about that just needs to loosen up. Lebron is top 5 all time, but no one will ever be Jordan.

 

[Dom70]

The Heat didn't start it . Boston's big three was the first.

Actually Orlando Magic started in summer of 2000 but injuries never allowed it to happen. Signed Grant Hill and TMAC, the top 2 FA's on the market IN PRIME and almost got Tim Duncan for the trio. But Grant got hurt and Tmac never got our of round 1 in Orlando.

 

[JTH007]

LOUNGE

 

[roofermike]

Never faced a team like the warriors..... That's laughable.....the Celtics with bird DJ chief Danny ainge come on....the pistons....they all had great teams to beat.....the NBA isn't like it was in the 80s and 90s

You mean the 80s & 90s when they played football on the court? The Bulls, Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons all had great teams. When Bird and Magic had their 5-year war, that was special, both teams were peaking. Pistons emerged as they both faded and faded themselves quickly. Won their second in a row in '90, lost to the Bulls in the ECF in '91 and were 3rd in the Central and lost to the Knicks in the first rd in '92.
What we are seeing now, get used to these two for another year or two - like 'em or not. You have no respect for the Warriors, a dynasty in the making, or the competition 'bron has faced in the Finals (Spurs,GSWs) and that's OK. You only reenforce my main point that a consensus GOAT is impossible - right now, anyway. Everyone has their own take.

 

[roofermike]

Super teams existed long before Golden State. For example, Lakers, Celtics,and Heat. Don't blame a guy for prolonging his career and legitimately having a chance to win a championship.

Lakers were built (trades,draft &FA). KG and Allen went to Boston via trade. That's different than superstar free agents hooking up.

 

[Gerkpot]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Lebron does not raise other peoples games. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Too funny

This is why you can't agrue with fools.

 

[tcane58]

You mean the 80s & 90s when they played football on the court? The Bulls, Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons all had great teams. When Bird and Magic had their 5-year war, that was special, both teams were peaking. Pistons emerged as they both faded and faded themselves quickly. Won their second in a row in '90, lost to the Bulls in the ECF in '91 and were 3rd in the Central and lost to the Knicks in the first rd in '92.
What we are seeing now, get used to these two for another year or two - like 'em or not. You have no respect for the Warriors, a dynasty in the making, or the competition 'bron has faced in the Finals (Spurs,GSWs) and that's OK. You only reenforce my main point that a consensus GOAT is impossible - right now, anyway. Everyone has their own take.

I always wondered what the Celts would have done with Lenny Bias......that could have been downright ugly.

 

[canecuz]

I honestly can't sit here and tear each player down to their fundamentals. But what I will say is that if you which ever one people favor in this debate, they will find the flaws in favor of their opinion while looking over the flaws of the other player. Jordan had of bad games. Just as LeBron has. Jordan struggled to make it past the 1st round of the playoffs. And here is the most important thing people keep forgetting. JORDAN DOESN'T WIN 6 RINGS WITHOUT PIPPEN and host of important role players ( Kerr, Paxton, Kucko, Grant, Rodman, Armstrong, etc.) Pippen said it best. These are two different players, they play the game differently, play two different positions, and basketball is not played the same way asbit was 20yrs ago.

 

[Umazing561]

Warriors still need to close it out...but seriously OP what better example of my ranting than bron bron down the stretch of game 3 tonight. I'll pat myself on the back no worries.

 

[Umazing561]

I honestly can't sit here and tear each player down to their fundamentals. But what I will say is that if you which ever one people favor in this debate, they will find the flaws in favor of their opinion while looking over the flaws of the other player. Jordan had of bad games. Just as LeBron has. Jordan struggled to make it past the 1st round of the playoffs. And here is the most important thing people keep forgetting. JORDAN DOESN'T WIN 6 RINGS WITHOUT PIPPEN and host of important role players ( Kerr, Paxton, Kucko, Grant, Rodman, Armstrong, etc.) Pippen said it best. These are two different players, they play the game differently, play two different positions, and basketball is not played the same way asbit was 20yrs ago.

You oversimplified the basis of this argument...your not completely wrong though for sure.

 

[Seanloc1]

greatest ever that would have to go to bill russell..11 championships in 13 years,no one even comes close..

The G.O.A.T. The greatest winner in the history of team sports. I was fortunate enough to see him play at his peak.

His defense, shot blocking and rebounding revolutionized the game.

How many teams in that era?

 

[cjgeyer]

Jordan never went up agains a TeAm like this warriors team ... I think out of all the finals teams labron has been on the only one that Jordan makes a difference and wins is heat Dallas ... Labon's 1st team in Cleveland Jordan doesn't win that one the loss to San Antonio I really don't think Jordan wins that one 1st one against golden state maybe maybe not .... Labron is special people need to quit watching him and comparing him to Jordan and just watch and enjoy his greatness guys like him and Jordan don't come around very often.

The mid 90s Bulls were the Warriors of their day. Jordan with pippen and rodman and Kerr. It's the Yankees of the NBA except it works better

 

[cjgeyer]

No way. Durant had to join a championship team to get a title (assuming they win it this season). LeBron came to a crappy Cavs team and got them a title and left the Heat, who then became crappy. It's not even close. I would put Westbrook and maybe even Harden ahead of Durant.

Durant was a great add to warriors. Cavs don't win in 16 if Curry is close to healthy.

 

[Tiv]

How many teams in that era?

Certainly less than there are today. But he had to get through some great teams, led by Chamberlain, Willis Reed and Oscar Robertson. No team in the history of team sports has won 11 'ships in 13 years.
It's unprecedented and it almost certainly won't ever happen again.

 

[Seanloc1]

How many teams in that era?

Certainly less than there are today. But he had to get through some great teams, led by Chamberlain, Willis Reed and Oscar Robertson. No team in the history of team sports has won 11 'ships in 13 years.
It's unprecedented and it almost certainly won't ever happen again.

Yes and he was arguably the most skilled big man out of how many again ? 2 and Boston had how many great players ?

 

[801canesmxer]

How many teams in that era?

There were a lot fewer teams back then so if you're saying that the league is watered down now days I agree with you. They also had times when they'd play 3 games in 3 nights, can you imagine the spoiled brats that play now days doing that? They also had a rule that they called traveling back in the old days. None of this 4 or even 5 steps crap that you see now. Why is it that hard to give respect where it's due? Great players from any era would still be great players.

 

[Seanloc1]

How many teams in that era?

There were a lot fewer teams back then so if you're saying that the league is watered down now days I agree with you. They also had times when they'd play 3 games in 3 nights, can you imagine the spoiled brats that play now days doing that? They also had a rule that they called traveling back in the old days. None of this 4 or even 5 steps crap that you see now. Why is it that hard to give respect where it's due? Great players from any era would still be great players.

Agree my point was he most definitely is great just not the GOAT.

 

[801canesmxer]

Agree my point was he most definitely is great just not the GOAT.

Actually my favorite player and who I consider as the GOAT was Wilt. Most remember him when he was older but he was something special when he was in his prime. All this GOAT talk in any sport is just opinion when it comes down to it but like I said, the greatest players would still be great in any era.

 

[Tiv]

Agree my point was he most definitely is great just not the GOAT.

801 makes an excellent point. In today's watered down NBA you have players starting that wouldn't even make an NBA team 50 years ago. Also, you had much better centers then than you have now - Chamberlain, Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Zelmo Beaty, Jerry Lucas, Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes. No comparison.
And Russell played with only 2 truly great players in his career. Early in his career he played with Bob Cousy. Later in his career he played with John Havlicek. The rest were good role players.
Most basketball historians consider him the greatest player of all time. And I agree.

 

[801canesmxer]

801 makes an excellent point. In today's watered down NBA you have players starting that wouldn't even make an NBA team 50 years ago. Also, you had much better centers then than you have now - Chamberlain, Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Zelmo Beaty, Jerry Lucas, Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes. No comparison.
And Russell played with only 2 truly great players in his career. Early in his career he played with Bob Cousy. Later in his career he played with John Havlicek. The rest were good role players.
Most basketball historians consider him the greatest player of all time. And I agree.

It could also be said that the players that became Hall of Famers while playing alongside of great players did so because of the fact that they played with the greats. In other words, would players like Scottie Pippen be considered where they are now without having played alongside of someone like Jordan? I also don't remember the Celtics being a dynasty before Russell came along so there's also that.

 

[roofermike]

Warriors still need to close it out...but seriously OP what better example of my ranting than bron bron down the stretch of game 3 tonight. I'll pat myself on the back no worries.

Yup, the difference is heart. Bulls fed off that

 

[Umazing561]

Never seen a more rigged sport in my life. #lebroncantfail

 

[cdwright40]

Truly an all time great player no doubt about it. Comparing him to Jordan is premature at this point. Lebron is still playing....and they are different types of players. Lebron is more of a player like Magic or Oscar Robinson. Not MJ. Kobe is a similar player to MJ. It's like comparing Ray Lewis to Ed Reed.

Like him or not, you can't take away from his greatness.